Pa State Parks

[davidpa28140]

Hello fellow campers, I am a frequent camper at PA State Parks and have enjoyed them for many years. Unfortunately, while staying at a canoe in only site at the Clear Creek State Park this summer , my and my family were subjected to an unfounded search and seizure at the hands of what I can only assume to be park rangers( no one introduced themselves and the bureau won't release names). After writing and calling the park manager, the regional manager, several state representatives ,a senator , the governor and the director bureau of state parks , I received assurance from the director that the entire regional ranger staff had been instructed on the acceptable ways to interact with visitors.
Frankly I find this vague reassurance lacking. I'm wondering if anyone else has had similar experiences? I've witnessed other people's sites being searched in the past and had assumed they were holigans, but now I see that wasn't always a correct assumption. Honestly, I used to love the Pa Park system but now fear running into Rangers that have no accountability again. Your experiences would be welcomed I'm hoping to find a little peace in this. Thanks, Dave

[Irate Mormon]

Re: Pa State Parks

What were they searching for, and what was seized?

[davidpa28140]

Re: Pa State Parks

They were searching for alcohol. PA has a no alcoholic beverages policy in state parks, which I've known for years. What they seized was the beer left over in our coolers on our boats from the days float trip down the river before arriving at the park. They also threatened a $300 fine for each empty can found in the boats( each of my empties were in my storage compartment on my kayak). No one was drinking at the park and no alcohol was visible. What the Rangers found and seized was simply what they got from the coolers. They searched our boats,coolers, backpacks,cooking supplies, duffle bags any storage containers and threatened to come back and search our tents and if we had any vehicles to search those to... I and I imagine most other visitors don't have an issue with PA State Parks having a " no alcohol policy" in general it keeps our parks from becoming a party grounds that are counter productive to family relaxation. Also it gives the parks a way to eject holigans.
I truly don't know why these park employees (Rangers??) choose to bully us this night, we had no radio , were quite and isolated from other campers and we're having a pleasant conversation with the first staff member who we invited to eat dinner with us before his other two staff members showed up.
Before they began there search I asked if they're were any complaints or if we had made noise, to which they said no. I told them I did not consent to any searches, to which they did anyway. Each of my family members, ranging from 2 years old to 61 years old was sober and the only thing the Rangers(?) came up with was our empty beer cans and several full beer cans on the boats. Really , I'm not bothered by them taking the few beers left on the boat, I'm bothered by the unaccountably of their actions , the way they bullied and intimidated us and the stubborn refusal of anyone at the PA Bureau of State Parks to tell me who they were, and when a park employee can without warrant search a patrons belongings. This lack of accountability is what makes me fearful to attend the park system that before this I truly loved.
Thanks so much for reading this and sharing your experiences or thoughts,
Dave

[terasec]

Re: Pa State Parks

wow
would like more details on this,
would be surprised if they were park rangers
probably local thieves posing as rangers

[tplife]

Re: Pa State Parks

Here in California, a campsite is considered a residence in the eyes of the law, meaning, a search requires a signed warrant, or probable cause an emergency that could risk bodily harm or imminent threats are taking place under colour of the law, and as with a residence you can openly carry a loaded f-*rm, or a concealed loaded f-*rm, and entry into the campside requires permission and can be denied by the lawful resident. These rights don't extend outside of the campsite, say to the bathhouse, or over to some other campsite, common areas, etc. On its face, this incident involving plainclothes non-uniformed, unnanounced and unidentified LEO sounds a little too incredible.

[davidpa28140]

Re: Pa State Parks

They were searching for alcohol. PA has a no alcoholic beverages policy in state parks, which I've known for years. What they seized was the beer left over in our coolers on our boats from the days float trip down the river( before arriving at the park). They also threatened a $300 fine for each empty can found in the storage compartment on my kayak). No one was drinking at the park and no alcohol was visible.
What the Rangers found and seized was simply what they got from the coolers. They searched our boats,coolers, backpacks,cooking supplies, duffle bags, storage containers and threatened to come back and search our tents and if we had any vehicles, they would search those to... I and I imagine most other visitors don't have an issue with PA State Parks having a " no alcohol policy" in general it keeps our parks from becoming a party grounds that are counter productive to family relaxation. Also it gives the parks a way to eject holigans.
I truly don't know why these park employees (Rangers??) choose to bully us this night, we had no radio , were quite and isolated from other campers and having a pleasant conversation with the first staff member who we invited to eat dinner with us before his other two staff members showed up bouncing across the grass as though in hot pursuit in park vehicles...
Before they began their search I asked if they're were any complaints or if we had made noise, to which they said no. I told them I did not consent to any searches, to which they did anyway. Each of my family members, ranging from 2 years old to 61 years old was sober and the only thing the Rangers(?) came up with was our empty beer cans and several full beer cans in the coolers. Really , I'm not bothered by them taking the few beers left on the boat, I'm bothered by my rights being disregarded, the unaccountably of their actions , the way they bullied and intimidated us ( high beams in eyes barking orders) and the stubborn refusal of anyone at the PA Bureau of State Parks to tell me who they were, and when a park employee can without warrant search a patrons belongings. This lack of accountability is what makes me fearful to attend the state park system that before this, I truly enjoyed. I pushed this up the management chain from the assistant manager to the manager to the regional manager to the bureau director to a senator to two representatives to the governor. All replied except the governor... The park manager and the regional manager both apologized profusely on our phone conversation, but never did any of the follow up they promised to do. The director of the bureau also apologized and said the issue was discussed with the whole region but I'm still left wondering who these people were, if any discipline has been handed to them and if they're abusing their authority at the moment.

Tplife,
Thank you for that information, I had hoped that considering we had rented the space that we would have some rights over the occupation of it, I am still digging to see what PA's take on that is.
I want to clarify, these weren't plain clothed individuals, they were wearing PA State Park uniforms, but they all look very similar regardless of their position ( i.e. Maintenance crew looks very much like Rangers and even Rangers come in different " levels" and ratings with similar uniforms ) when number two and three showed up they positioned their vehicles in a manner that made the high beams blinding. No introductions were made.
I've never experienced anything like it before in any park.
Again thanks for taking the time to read this and your thoughts.

[toedtoes]

Re: Pa State Parks

I believe that in California the law is that the tent/tarp/trailer is protected - not the campsite. There is no reasonable expectation of privacy in regards to the campsite, but there is in regards to the tent.

And, I believe in connection with that, the LE can enter the campsite, but they cannot enter the tent/tarp without a warrant, etc.

As to carrying a weapon, I won't go there as that is not the discussion on hand.

To the OP, I'd be curious as to what led up to the search & seizure. Did the LE just walk up and start searching or did they indicate a reason? Where did the search happen - at the campsite or somewhere else in the campground or outside the campground? What were you doing before the search started?

I'd love to give you the "that's outrageous" response, but there really isn't any facts to base that on.

[davidpa28140]

Re: Pa State Parks

Toedtoes,

The search occurred at the campsite.
We had gotten off the river about 45 minutes earlier. I reserved the site weeks ahead.
One park employee that I can only assume was a ranger walked down through the grass to our site and stayed about 20-30 feet from us, we had a rather long conversation about our trip, geese, trees ect.. He appeared friendly but also due to the length of our "small talk" appeared to be buying time.
We were making dinner and were tired as the float trip took longer than planned. We asked the park employee to join us for dinner as it seemed the polite thing to do and there was plenty of food .
He declined but continued to make small talk, a few minutes later two PA State Park vehicles came off the road and bounced through the grass up onto our site...
At this I realized the first guy was actually buying time and that there was going to be a conflict..
One man got out of each vehicle with their high beams shining in on us and stood in front of their vehicles so I could barely see them. The rest is in my earlier post.
If it is true that PA State Park visitors have no expectation of privacy while on their sites then I have no room for complaint outside of the embarrassing lack of transparency of the bureau and the unprofessional methods used .
But the answer to my expectations seems to be the one the bureau refuses to answer and that in conjunction with not knowing who these guys were gives me concern for "marshal law at Rangers discretion " if in fact PA has laws as your home state I will simply take my camper in the future. I have no issue with following the rules and I expect law enforcement to do the same, the concern is no one at the bureau will say or print just what is expected of both parties i.e. Visitors and staff.
It maybe worth mentioning that 5 others from my family wrote letters and made calls as well and I actually volunteer at another state park and have enjoyed those individuals over the years.

[MountainMama]

Re: Pa State Parks

What were they searching for, and what was seized?

This was the first question in my mind as well.

To the OP, I'd be curious as to what led up to the search & seizure. Did the LE just walk up and start searching or did they indicate a reason? Where did the search happen - at the campsite or somewhere else in the campground or outside the campground? What were you doing before the search started?

I'd love to give you the "that's outrageous" response, but there really isn't any facts to base that on.

It would be great to hear these details. There are just too many possible scenarios to respond reasonably.

I have personally camped in PA state parks many times, as I am from that area. State Parks in MD, WV, and PA were our regular spots. I have never seen or heard of anything like this happening.

Although I have never camped in remote sites like canoe-in spots. It could be that IF there are dishonest officers that they only target such sites.

I am very interested in hearing more detail of this, and other incidents that you have witnessed. My interactions, over a life time of dealing with park rangers, have always been extremely positive.

[davidpa28140]

Re: Pa State Parks

Mountian mama,

Up until this my interactions with staff have always been great as well. I know there is a few bad apples in every pot but what troubles me here is the management doesn't seem to want to address the issue and that makes me worry for the future of the parks.

[NYCgrrl]

Re: Pa State Parks

Thinking back, the only time I've seen the authorities searching a campsite were the following times:

Sometime in the late 70's/early 80's on Martha's Vineyard. Someone decided to fill and light a liquid fuel lantern in a tent. Mostly it was the fire department on site.

Same time frame a couple decided to make love in a nearby horse pasture. Unfortunately they dinna realise it was filled with poison ivy. Air medi vacced off the island.


Past summer in CT a group of teen aged boys had some kind of kerfuffle going on that involved the police in the middle of the night. No idea what it was about although there were some noise complaints coming from their direction. Next day the police were back when they didn't check out on time. And the mother of one of them. I suspect that mom's appearance was worst than the police fer em.

[tplife]

Re: Pa State Parks

I believe that in California the law is that the tent/tarp/trailer is protected - not the campsite. There is no reasonable expectation of privacy in regards to the campsite, but there is in regards to the tent.

And, I believe in connection with that, the LE can enter the campsite, but they cannot enter the tent/tarp without a warrant, etc.

As to carrying a weapon, I won't go there as that is not the discussion on hand.

To the OP, I'd be curious as to what led up to the search & seizure. Did the LE just walk up and start searching or did they indicate a reason? Where did the search happen - at the campsite or somewhere else in the campground or outside the campground? What were you doing before the search started?

I'd love to give you the "that's outrageous" response, but there really isn't any facts to base that on.

Earth to Crazytown: No, California law is very clear regarding "temporary residences". Your campsite IS YOUR RESIDENCE under Ca law. It is subject to all rights and responsibilities under that law. We enjoy privacy rights throughout the entire campsite (common areas are not included). Outside of what is called "probable cause' ( intense screaming, gunshots, prior facts) LEO will not even enter your campsite here in Cali without first saying "hello!" at the front of the site. We have been through this many, many times. They holler, and wait for acknowlegement, and won't enter unless invited (they are not stupid either and also know our law). We do understand our rights and priviledges, and as CA residents, hold fast to all of them - California residents own more so-called "assault weapons" than any state in the nation...for good reason! We can OPEN CARRY or CONCEALED CARRY in our campsites loaded, and are only bound under state law to allow an identified LEO to check our weapons in areas where loaded weapons are not allowed... Sounds complicated, but if you were a sportsman and hunter, trapper and outdoorsman, gun owner and collector, well, like my Harley-Davidson... IF I HAVE TO EXPLAIN, YOU WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND!

[toedtoes]

Re: Pa State Parks

Earth to Crazytown: No, California law is very clear regarding "temporary residences". Your campsite IS YOUR RESIDENCE under Ca law. It is subject to all rights and responsibilities under that law. We enjoy privacy rights throughout the entire campsite (common areas are not included). Outside of what is called "probable cause' ( intense screaming, gunshots, prior facts) LEO will not even enter your campsite here in Cali without first saying "hello!" at the front of the site. We have been through this many, many times. They holler, and wait for acknowlegement, and won't enter unless invited (they are not stupid either and also know our law). We do understand our rights and priviledges, and as CA residents, hold fast to all of them - California residents own more so-called "assault weapons" than any state in the nation...for good reason! We can OPEN CARRY or CONCEALED CARRY in our campsites loaded, and are only bound under state law to allow an identified LEO to check our weapons in areas where loaded weapons are not allowed... Sounds complicated, but if you were a sportsman and hunter, trapper and outdoorsman, gun owner and collector, well, like my Harley-Davidson... IF I HAVE TO EXPLAIN, YOU WOULDN'T UNDERSTAND!

If you disagree with something I post, then show proof that I am wrong. Show me the law that states that the entire campsite is protected.

If you can't show respect and offer something other than your self-absorbed ego to prove your point, then let it go.

This is the 2nd time in as many days that you have insulted another poster on this forum because you disagree with them. All it does is make you look like an idiot.

[MacGyver]

Re: Pa State Parks

If you can't show respect and offer something other than your self-absorbed ego to prove your point, then let it go.

This is the 2nd time in as many days that you have insulted another poster on this forum because you disagree with them. All it does is make you look like an idiot.

They don't teach tact and diplomacy in engineering school.

[toedtoes]

Re: Pa State Parks

This forum is too small to let that attitude go unchecked. It's nice having new people join and start sharing their love of camping. The moderation period and occasional delays with that end up losing some potentially nice folks - we don't need to insult the ones who stick it out and chase them away because one person can't show respect to others.